18: Sleep: Here, There, and Everywhere with Sally Conway, Part 2
In This Episode:
We wrap up our conversation from Episode 17 with Sally Conway, mother of a three year old, talking about what a horse feeder and bedtime routine have to do with each other, how training horses really prepared Sally for parenting, and how sleep plays into teen mental health.
The Big Idea
The belief that the most loving thing we can do to our children is just provide consistency all the way through the teen years.
Questions I Answer
Can I really have a schedule that incorporates what my child needs to grow but also feels like my partner and I are living life?
How do I determine how much sleep my child needs to be happy?
What is the most loving thing we can do for our children?
How long does it typically take to establish a rhythm or routine for sleep with my child?
How can setting sleep patterns for my child help with their mental health as they get older?
How can I build resilience in my child?
Actions to Take
Book support to take sleep off your to-do list.
Wondering if your child has reached their sleep milestone, check out Sleep Milestones Guide and get the answer in 5 minutes or less.
Click the three dots on the right of this episode's graphics to subscribe or follow the show.
Share this podcast with a friend. And be sure to screenshot and tag me on Instagram or send me an email so that I can properly thank you for sharing the show.
Key Moments In The Show
4:40 - the value of that routine and consistency for children
6:55 - How animals and children thrive under consistent expectations
14:25 - What lead to starting Sleep Happy
16:38 - About the Grace Loncar Foundation and the importance of mental health in children
19:10 - The importance of setting boundaries as children
22:11 - Finding the value of establishing trust with your children
23:44 - Resilience in children
27:44 - Takeaways from this episode
About Our Guest
Sally Conway is a wife and mother to a 3 year old daughter. Sally is a competitive barrel racer who races in rodeos from Fort Worth, Texas to Cody, Wyoming and in between. She is also the executive director of the Grace Loncar Foundation, a foundation founded in honor of her sister Grace who died by suicide at 16. The Grace Loncar Foundation helps teens and young adults fight depression while raising awareness about mental health. For more information, visit the Grace Loncar Foundation website.
Resources + Links
Check out Part 1 of this episode if you missed it: https://www.sleephappyconsulting.com/podcast/ep17
Want to know what typical sleep looks like for a child four months to six years? Then download our Sleep Milestones Guide.
Learn more about the Grace Loncar Foundation.
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Jessica Bryant 0:00
Hello friends and welcome to The Good Mornings Podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Bryant. This is episode eighteen, Part Two of Sleep: Here, There and Everywhere with Sally Conway. In the midst of conflicting messages and societal pressures, my goal is to offer a unique perspective to you. Rather than glorifying busyness and devaluing rest, you should question whether society's priorities are skewed. What if you placed a higher emphasis on sleep within your family? Could it have the power to change your world? Of course, I'm not suggesting that you abandon yourself in all other aspects of your life in favor of mapping and bedtime routines, nor should you sacrifice relationships, travel or fun to ensure your child is always rested. However, I'm suggesting that resolving sleep issues can instill greater confidence and freedom and your family and allow you to better appreciate life's joys. All thanks to waking up, well rested each morning. I am Jessica Bryant, an internationally recognized pediatric sleep strategist, motivational speaker, wife, and mother of three, including twins, like you, I understand the pressures parents feel today. And as an expert on sleep, I'm here to help you choose good mornings.
Jessica Bryant 1:45
I'm excited to share the second half of the episode with Sally Conway from last week, I felt felt like we left off on such a great point that I didn't even know we would get to. But the whole feeling of not being at the mercy of your toddler schedule. And I feel like that get that question. So often. It's in families that come to me and they're skeptical, and rightfully so. And they're just wondering, Can I really have a schedule that works for both of us that incorporates what my child needs to grow and develop into how my partner and I feel connected and led to live our lives. And so that was a great piece and many other nuggets from Sally last week. And so today we're wrapping up with kind of finishing that conversation about the schedule and the perfect world schedule. We're talking about what a horse feeder and bedtime routine have to do with each other. How training horses really prepared Sally for parenting, and how sleep plays into teen mental health. And another portion of Sally's life's work that she shares with us today. So let's dive in. I'm excited to share the second half of my conversation with Sally Conway.
Jessica Bryant 3:13
Just knowing you learned what I always call it the perfect world schedule is for Mary Grace, you knew that she was in a great mood she ate well, she was you know, she moved through her day easier if this, you know, he had an hour and a half nap. And if she slept, for example, she had a regular bedtime and she slept 11 hours at night, you know or whatever. And so you can take that sleep science, that's how much her body needs to be her best self to reach her full potential. And you can adopt it you can put her down to bed. And you know, go rodeo. I was just telling a parent yesterday that when we had Madeline, we would pack up the pack and play and go to a friend's house for dinner. And the kids would play and I would put her to bed at seven o'clock at the friend's house, they would put their kids to bed and we would sit on the back porch and have connection time with adults and those kind of things. And then we'd pack her up and go home. And when they were older, I would put them to bed and I'd have a babysitter come from down the street at 7:15. And we Alan and I would go out to dinner. And it also made it easier for my parents to watch her because sleep wasn't an issue, you know, and they could do the same routines at home.
Jessica Bryant 4:35
But for Mary Grace, I think it's a great illustration of the value of that routine and consistency. Because while Mary Grace was maybe in a different town every couple of days or you know you might sleep in the trailer one night you might sleep in a cabin the next night or something like that. She couldn't control those things. And so that was a little different. For her world, but then the comfort of when you started the book, choosing the book, or you started the bath, and you chose the book and you read the song. It was like, oh, mommy's doing the same thing. Or Mommy's not here right now. But daddy's doing the same thing. You know, those patterns are so comforting for children, and they, they make them feel safe. And their nervous systems are more relaxed, because their bodies read that pattern. And so they are more content with other things being in chaos, or things changing or being in different places. It just, it builds confidence, and then they're well rested. And they're like, oh, yeah, you know, I slept in the trailer last night. And then I slept on the cabin this night. And, oh, we're at the zoo today, this is really fun. And we might miss nap. But we might go to bed early to make up for it or things like that. So I think that was a really great illustration of how that works in your family.
Sally Conway 5:58
Totally. And I mean, this is funny, you were talking about bath time, like that is an important part of what we've instilled as a part of her nighttime routine. And, you know, it might fluctuate in terms of like, so we had like a big rubber, like a horse trough that she would take a bath it when we were on the road, it was literally like a horse feeder. And you know, but it's kind of just, it's fun. And it's, that's where I'm super proud of it. Yeah, the routine can still maintain consistency, and maybe a degree of creativity to it. But also give you a lifestyle, that you can still go and enjoy life and you're not just like chain involved to your house in this, you know, I have to live this way. And you know, so that's, I really want to encourage moms that if you get creative, you can still keep that routine, but at the same time, also kind of have a sense of adventure to your family life.
Sally Conway 6:55
One thing I wanted to speak on, that's kind of from my background in in training horses, is the importance of that consistency, though. So a lot of times, so I trained horses, that's another thing. It really is helpful with parenting Can I kind of have this like a little bit of frame of reference for how animals and children I genuinely believe I probably have more experience with animals and children. But animals thrive under consistent expectations. So a lot of times we want to like romanticize and especially with horses, people are like, I want them to be my friend, I want them to love me. And so they'll kind of let animals kind of walk all over them or, or depending on their mood that day, if they're in a good mood, they can let their horse get away with things that they wouldn't if they were in a bad mood, and kind of it's this like fluctuating scale of expectations. And what ends up happening is those are not the happiest horses, they really aren't. Because they never know what's expected of them. Right in that lack of consistent, more stress and more real. It's very stressful for them because they don't know, am I allowed to like, you know, nudge my owner? Am I not allowed? Like, sometimes it's kind of like, okay, well, if I pause, sometimes she gets mad at me. And if I pause other times, she doesn't get mad at me. So like, Am I allowed to paw? Am I not allowed to paw? and so you know, providing consistent expectations with horses, when you're training is one of the nicest things you can do for them. Because it gives them a framework of which they can say okay, I know that this is expected of me. And I can if I don't do it, I know that there's going to be a consequence, I may do it anyways, just to see maybe a little little test test the boundaries a little bit.
Sally Conway 8:48
But you know, having worked with horses, you know, the happiest and healthiest to I'll mentioned healthiest because a lot of times when we ask horses to not or do certain behaviors, it's for their own benefit. Like I don't want my horse pawing because I don't want it you know, leg to get through the fence and get cut up. So when I'm asking him to do something, it's safe actually means reward. It's a safety thing, same thing as what we're doing with parents. But I think sometimes we think when we put boundaries in place that we actually inhibit connectedness, and I would argue the difference, I would say boundaries give us framework for that connectedness. Because when we know what's expected of us, and there's a consistency to that we like there's nothing worse than not knowing what's acceptable and unacceptable, right? Like even in our personal relationships, like let me articulate this a little bit better.
Sally Conway 9:44
But once sometimes the most loving thing you can do and I feel this way towards my horses is I love them very much. And the most loving thing I can do for my horses is to be fair and consistent with expectations for them. Because if one day I'm in a really good mood, and I can Let them do as they please. And then the next day, I'm in a bad mood, and I'm really hard on them, then that's not fair to them. They don't know what's expected of them and what they, they like live in this limbo of how they should behave. And I feel the same kind of, I have a little bit of the same attitude towards my parenting that, you know, if I am having a really great day, and things are really going well, and my daughter's kind of being a toot. And I'm like, Well, I'm just having a great day. So I let it all side. And then the very next day, you know, I'm not feeling well, and I'm kind of in a bad mood and the things that I let slide yesterday, I'm all the sudden, just like, well, you can, you know, you just throw the hammer down, and we're all guilty of it. I'm guilty of it. Right. I think that that's the conviction of saying and looking at ourselves and being like, I really believe that sometimes the most loving thing we can do to our children is just provide consistency. And again, as somebody who lives a life that is like, kind of here, there and everywhere. I'm not saying consistency of Oh, you just need to be traveling all day. Yeah, this boring life of like, we do this. And then we go here actually, I'm like, very opposed to that. But I mean, consistency, and the important things, you know, consistency of sleep, and that priority consistency of values and manners and things of that nature.
Jessica Bryant 11:26
Yes and just to put in context, when you're talking about horses, for others that may not know, you're also and I'm not sure that I'll phrase it right, but you're looking for to be connected to a horse and have that trust, because you're flying at how many miles an hour racing around barrels with them, right? Okay, let's take a short mid episode break. And when we get back, Sally is going to share why building trust with her horses is so important.
Jessica Bryant 12:01
Are you wondering if your child is sleeping enough? Are you looking for a resource to use to find out what is normal? What is the normal amount of sleep for a child ages four months to six years? At Sleep Happy, we believe you and your children deserve good sleep without the frustration of trying to figure out if your child is on track, and if they're getting the sleep their body needs. So we've created the Sleep Milestones Guide as a resource to answer that very question. We want you to know what typical sleep looks like for a child four months to six years. We want you to know when children drop naps and how schedules change as your child grows and develops, the process is easy. First, download the Sleep Milestones Guide by visiting the link in the show notes or visiting www.sleephappyconsulting.com/free. Second, take five minutes to review the guide to confidently know where your child falls with their sleep milestones. Third, feel comforted that you know where your child stands with their sleep. And you have a resource, a place to reach out if you need help solving your child's sleepless nights. Now back to the show.
Sally Conway 13:33
I need to know that when I ask them for something they'll give it so our event is a speed event. So I'm running at full speed and I'm turning three barrels. But if I can't pull that horse up at full speed that's dangerous. So I need to be able to know that the consistent cues that I've put in that horse are reliable. And so that's where consistency is like a safety issue. But then it's also a relationship issue because I want my horses to know that they can trust me and I want to know that I can trust them. And that is established foundationally between both being consistent with me being consistent with my cues with me being consistent with my expectations. And so that is where that trust is established and cultivated.
Jessica Bryant 14:25
Yes, yes. I love that analogy. And I love how it plays out in so much of our life that I feel like we don't talk about and somehow in the last couple of years boundaries have gotten a bad name. And definitely, I feel like one of the reasons I was led to start Sleep Happy was that feeling of friends around me when I became a mom, you know, and then my children started to grow. So many of them were just frustrated and exhausted. And feeling like they were slogging through life and they they weren't enjoying their partner. And, you know, going back to what you said about the joy and connection you have with Mary Grace in that time, in that awake time, you know, I felt like there was something I learned from creating those schedules and those sleeps in those routine that brought so much more joy to my life. And that's what I wanted for other families to know that if you can put in that hard work for usually three to five days, you know, then it's kind of off your to do list and it becomes just a rhythm, a workable rhythm. And, you know, especially with the ages of my children being 19, and the twins being 16, you know, the last six years, everything I have thought about is, you know, I just I want my children set for success to kind of follow their own path, to try out new things and not be bogged down. You know, I want their mental health to be healthy, I want them to understand how to take care of their mental health, if if it does get a dip, you know, but because I hear so many stories about just anxiety ridden 18/19 year old children who are going into the world to work or going into the world for college that just, you know, are stifled. And so that kind of leads me into kind of wrapping up and asking you to kind of share about your work in mental health and your work in the foundation. And if you could tell us a little bit about what you would like listeners to know there.
Sally Conway 16:38
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm the executive director of a nonprofit that my family founded in honor of my 16 year old sister Grace Loncar that died by suicide. So the topic of mental health is not only something that's important to me from a professional, but it's also like a deeply personal topic for me. And, you know, I don't think that we can have the conversation about teen suicide and mental health without also talking about the things we've been talking about today, which is the importance of boundaries, the importance of emotional regulation, the importance of sleep, it would take one quick Google search for people to look at the correlation of sleep and mental health. I want parents to hear me really loudly when I say sleep is a very strong indicator of if your child might be struggling with a mental health issue. And so if sleep patterns aren't kind of established, you might miss a very, very important red flag for your child. And so, you know, all the things we talked about, we can take about, kind of lightheartedly, but I'm here to say that the dialogue about sleep is so important, because it has ramifications for when our children age, and also the importance of the things that help our children to establish good sleep patterns, like emotional regulation, self confidence, self awareness, those are so important to our Teens mental health. And so I really want to implore parents to look into that, and maybe educate themselves about protecting their teens sleep and establishing those patterns so that later if they're ever concerned, that might be a really good warning sign for them, that something might be wrong, and they might need some help. And then just very early on, teaching our kids to establish boundaries for their selves for their own protection. And then establishing boundaries, like internally but also externally, is super important in sleep and being able to respect those boundaries.
Sally Conway 19:10
You know, when we talking about, you know, from very early on with our kids, being able to create an atmosphere where we have established boundaries that are respected, I think helps them later on in life to establish boundaries with other people and hold those boundaries, because they have been taught from an early age that boundaries are important and are, you know, something that has value. So I'm an advocate for that. But above all else, I'm just a huge, huge advocate that, you know, we really need to as families, as mothers as parents to look for that as a potential warning sign. You know, if your kid is sleeping a lot and that is not normal for them. That is a huge indicator that they may be struggling with depression, if they are having a lot of trouble sleeping, that's a huge indicator that they might be struggling with anxiety. And so let's try to get ahead of it instead of behind it and get them the help that they need.
Sally Conway 20:14
And kind of like what we talked about at the beginning of this podcast, as mothers is being able to recognize when we are lost and needing some help, let's set that example for our children, and then continue to preach that message that when we are struggling to find our footing, to reach out and get help. And I think that we need to set that example. And then we need to continue to carry that message to our children. That help is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength, and saying, I'm not in a good place, and I need to do some recalibrating and I need some assistance in that process to find my footing. And that is actually like a huge sign of maturity and bravery. And is life saving.
Jessica Bryant 21:03
Yes, absolutely. And where can listeners find more about your Foundation and how you, you've serve others with it.
Sally Conway 21:14
So our website is www.graceloncarfoundation.com and our work is primarily in schools. And then in local Parent Teacher associations. We've done presentations at the YMCA. But our goal is to help equip parents to kind of navigate some of this and we host speakers that are professionals on certain topics. So we've done like a technology topic we've done, you know, an actual suicide topic, we've done bullying, but kind of help parents navigate some of these topics that contribute to their child's mental health. And so anyways, and then we also do help with a scholarship for inpatient care. But yeah, so our goal is really to kind of support teens and their families to eradicate suicide by providing awareness and resources. So that's what we do.
Jessica Bryant 22:11
We're so grateful that you're sharing our gifts because I do feel like you know, mental health, especially for teens, a teen's, as you said, vulnerable ages and uncomfortable times for parents, as well. And children, they're still children, and they still seek that scaffolding and that framework in the background. And they I'm kind of blown away a little bit of how much they they still are invested and connected at home, you know, you I feel like we growing up, you know, you weren't supposed to trust a teenager or, you know, you weren't just as a blanket statement that, you know, and I think we say that sometimes about young children too. And, you know, finding the value and trusting them to take care of their bodies and giving them the space to do that and not control every you know, the second they fall asleep or the this doing all the soothing or helicoptering or doing the work for them or doing the hard things for them. It's really hard to be a parent and just sit back and let your child be uncomfortable. But that resiliency and that, you know, self regulation, all those little pieces come together to really build in that strong mental health. But then, also like what you said, just making health acceptable and part of life and a sign of strength, I think is a great, you know, a great takeaway. But
Sally Conway 23:44
I want to add one more thing that you touched on that I want to show resiliency. And this is how I have had it described to me because I think that it's a huge topic these days with the crisis that is mental health and teens. I just want to throw this statistic out there that from age 10 to 24: Suicide is the second leading cause of death. And so that's like, the importance of resiliency in our kids is just it's critical. But what we need to understand is resiliency is a muscle. So it's something that the Moon said the more that it grows, and that is why it is so important from early on, that we allow stressors in our child's life, frustrations in an age and developmentally appropriate stage, right? Like we're not going to ask him like we really need to be cognitive about that and discerning but at the same time,
Jessica Bryant 24:44
tolerable stress versus toxic stress.
Sally Conway 24:47
Exactly. That's exactly right. But we need to allow that because that's what gives them resiliency, and it's not if but when our children face struggles, hardship, you know, emotional all challengers like that is going to be coming their direction. And the most loving thing that we can do for them as their parents is have beefed up their resiliency skills I have given. Yeah, like that they have been, you know, we have allowed them, as they've aged to face things like frustrations and disappointments and all of those things. So that when it kind of gets to a little bit of a higher state game, when they're facing, you know, kind of more aggressive disappointments that they don't crumble, that we have, kind of equip them throughout their lives to deal with that. And, you know, so that is, I definitely think an important framework, even in regards to, you know, sleep training is saying, like, hey, let's put in a good stepping stone that we're gonna allow for our kid at developmentally, you know, not when they're three weeks old, but to experience some stressors and work through those stressors, so that they start to develop some resiliency skills. You know, I mean, it's, I think it's just really important that, you know, if I were to say, three things that I feel like are very important for teen mental health, it would be resiliency skills, it would be self regulation, skills, and boundaries, and then I can't leave this one out. So it's for the ability to ask for help when you need it.
Jessica Bryant 26:30
Yes, those are great. Well, Sally, I really enjoyed talking with you today. And I thank you so much for sharing your genius with us. And I loved kind of just seeing you know, how sleep has progressed in your family and how you see it play out in your work as well. And then tying it into horses, and some things too, so it was really great to have you. And thank you so much for giving your time and expertise to the show today.
Sally Conway 27:00
Yes, ma'am. Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for what you did for our family two and a half years ago.
Jessica Bryant 27:07
You're are so welcome. Well, what do you guys think of that conversation? I was so grateful that Sally was so excited to be on today. And we did have some technical difficulties. So if you're wondering why there's not kind of a closure of us hopping off the conversation, that's why we can put that down as the podcast newbies bloopers, right? They're missing a few parts. Okay, I had so many takeaways from this portion of the conversation that I really had to work to narrow it down.
Jessica Bryant 27:44
So let's get into the two takeaways from today's episode. I think one of the first ones for me, because right now my children are teenagers is just that reminder for me and my friends that it is good that I'm still on top of their sleep, that I still ask questions about their sleep. because sleep is such a strong indicator of something that is not going well. You know, if like Sally mentioned, if your child is sleeping too much, or your child is sleeping, not enough, then really kind of diving into looking into mental health and if there's anything that they're just struggling with, which is so such a normal part of those vulnerable years of those teenage years. And it's a great opportunity to teach children that asking for help and accepting help is part of life, and really makes us more connected to the world and each other. And it's really common. Taking away that stigma is so important. I know that I have a friend that shared with me that their teenager they thought was sleeping great, because their question was, How was your sleep last night and the child would say, good. But when they started diving into the counselor and some other things that were coming up in the child's life, they learned that the child was waking up every 45 minutes all night long, and had been for several months. And so for a 16, 17, 18 year old, waking every hour like that, or every 45 minute interval, that's very broken sleep, and that is not providing the brain the download time each night. If you look into the science, anything less than five hours of connected sleep is damaging and takes a toll on the brain. So it was that good reminder to me that I asked my kids if they slept well, but I don't ask them if they how many times they woke up in the night. So I thought that was a great tip and And Sally goes into reminding you that the work you're putting in right now with young children, on boundaries on emotional regulation on building those patterns for self soothing as a baby, and really making sleep a priority in your home are all things that benefit the big picture. That goal that we all have to launch resilient, kind, confident children out into the world when they become adults. So just remember, you're doing really important work down in those trenches, even though it's hard. It's really valuable. So stick with it.
Jessica Bryant 28:52
The other illustration that Sally gave that really blew me away, was thinking of resiliency as a muscle and having that, that analogy that you have to work and build, you know, build strength and resiliency, I sometimes wrapped too many words around things. And so resiliency is a muscle. I love that the importance of not doing for our kids what they can do for themselves. Another great reminder. So how are you helping build resiliency in your child, whether they are six months old? Three years old, 10 years old? I think that's a great takeaway from today to reflect on. Are you allowing failure? Or are you preventing it from ever happening? Are you allowing them to learn how to tolerate disappointment? When things don't go their way? Kind of brings makes me think of Candyland. Have you taught your child to self soothe, and have you taught them how to care for their bodies and be in charge of their sleep. Because, as we know, the one person they can trust in their whole life is themselves. So building that ability to listen to their body, to rest their body, to not push themselves too far or avoid what you know, their mind or their body is telling them is too much. And I think another nugget within this resiliency is a muscle is also teaching everyone around us that asking for help and accepting help is normal and a part of the human experience. And there's not a stigma, it's actually a sign of strength. And I think that that goes a long way to to building well rested children who are confident and connected in a way that they're able to thrive. That's my goal. That's what I'm working towards. still a work in progress.
Jessica Bryant 33:01
But I hope you enjoy this split episode. And these first two episodes with the conversations. I'd love to hear what you think of this season so far. And if you have any thing to add, or things that you're hoping to. A great way to do that is you can send me an email at Jessica@sleephappyconsulting.com. And don't forget what we talked about in the mid episode break that free download that is available on my website. At the end of this show. You can hit pause and scroll down in the show notes right here. Whether you're listening in Apple or you're listening in Spotify, and there will be a link that you can follow to access of that free download and answer that question "is my child getting the sleep their body needs?" Thanks for joining. Thanks for being here. We are so grateful and we are thankful to have you along to build that community of those who choose to have good mornings.
Jessica Bryant 34:19
I loved hanging out with you today. And I'm so grateful you were here. I hope you left feeling comforted by the messages you heard. I hope they helped you quiet the societal pressures that are in your mind and focus on what really matters to you in your parenting journey. I also hope you've heard messages that made you feel like the good parents you already are. If you enjoyed the show, and you would like more information about me and Sleep Happy Consulting the process is simple. First, visit my website at www.sleephappyconsulting.com or click the link in today's show notes. Second sign up for our weekly Sleep Happy email. And third, stay connected with Sleep Happy and the Good Mornings Podcast. Thank you for listening and being a part of this space where we value arrest and solving sleepless nights so that it's easy for you to choose to have good mornings. I'm Jessica Bryant and this is the Good Mornings Podcast
Jessica Bryant has been called the best speaker on baby sleep, transitioning to parenting, and balancing work and family. She is a woman who loves speaking to corporate audiences, postpartum support groups, and church communities about how to parent the way you dreamed of. She is a sleep strategist and host of the Good Mornings Podcast.
The Good Mornings Podcast is the best parenting podcast for moms and dads. The transcript for this episode is created by Otter.AI, so please excuse any typos, misspellings and grammar mistakes.
